Are you taking into account how children develop all over the world? There are children all over the world, all non western, that experience things that few people in the western world do. And I doubt they will all show the same patterns as happens in the west. Ironically, resilience was something Haidt talked about before he jumped on the bandwagon of teen mental health crisis and social media. There is quite a bit of research about resilience among kids and the ability they have to bounce back from horrible experiences. But also what happens when they cannot for whatever reason. Are you familiar with research like this? I think you could find analogous patterns in non-western countries but also phenomena that won't fit into Western theories of child development or how kids should be raised. And what variations there in raising kids that could lead to similar outcomes, and probably as what patterns of adversity that goes beyond their ability of resilience.
This is an important point, and I'm sorry I don't know more about non-Western experiences with social media. I am aware of Haidt's complete about face, from being a harsh, often sarcastic critic in his 2018 book of "coddling" young people via censoring their experiences to the nation's chief coddler today. We are seeing evidence of young people's resilience in recent surveys that show even those with the worst experiences growing up nevertheless resist harmful behaviors, and it would be useful to know more about how. That's another reason I oppose these one-size-fits-all edicts banning or restricting young people's social media use.
Also too is the elephant in the room for Gen X: they were not only the most lead-poisoned generation in history, but in many ways they were also one of the most neglected during childhood in recent history as well. Makes you wonder if the "resilience" they like to brag so much about is really more about papering over the massive holes in their hearts from their childhood.
Indeed. While Haidt's about-face is ostensibly only for the online world, we know that in practice, attempting to do what he advocates at scale would spill over into the offline world too, leading to a new dark age for young people both online AND offline. Too many adults are still far too irrationally scared of the offline world to give young people the independence, and thus resilience, that they need to thrive, and that Let Grow advocates.
Maybe if adults, especially parents, stopped watching so much true crime stuff and 24/7 fearporn news media in general, we could make some real progress.
Well done again, Mike, I support you getting all to consider parental child abuse and neglect are at the core of violence towards others and self.
If you have not read Lloyd deMause, I urge you to do so, and send others likewise.
All of his books can be downloaded no charge at www.psychohistory.com along with many papers from the Psychohistory group.
Once you review the overwhelming evidence you must conclude that the "origin of war (and all human violence) is child abuse" (title of Lloyd's last book).
“The Gods Visit the Sins of the Fathers Upon the Children.” Euripides
“The history of childhood is a nightmare from which we have only recently begun to awaken. The further back in history one goes, the lower the level of child care. The source of most human violence and suffering has been a hidden children's holocaust throughout history, whereby billions of innocent human beings have been routinely murdered, bound, starved, raped, mutilated, battered, and tortured by their parents and other caregivers, so that they grow up as emotionally crippled adults and become vengeful time bombs who periodically restage their early traumas in sacrificial rites called wars. The evolution of the psyche is first of all accomplished by removing terrible abuses of children and their resulting developmental distortions, allowing the psyche to produce historical novelty and achieve its own inherent human growth path. Culture evolves through the increase of love and freedom for children. Self-mastery must replace the mastery of others. Global suicide must not continue to be our goal. History is now a race between too slowly improving childrearing and too fast evolving destructive technology. The crucial task of future generations will be to raise loved children who grow up to be peaceful, rather than walking time bombs. Can we afford not to teach parenting? What more important task can we devote our resources to?” Lloyd deMause
I agree and have read deMause, and I served on a state child abuse prevention board, which foolishly elected me president. It fascinates me that Haidt, a 2018 harsh critic of "coddling" young people by censoring their experiences has now morphed into the world's biggest child coddler -- yet, in a third contradiction, he has proven completely uninterested in child abuse and family troubles' influences on mental health.
Generally, as you probably know, few non-academics have read him, and the not much fewer academics that have read him and Psychohistory, relegate its claims for child abuse and neglect to the Freudian concocted hysteria bin.
As Lloyd points out, respected social scientists and anthropologists on childhood from current Melvin Konner to 1930s Margaret Mead, denied child abuse occurred in primitive tribal societies. Lloyd quotes Mead “we’ve had one corpse float by, a newborn infant; they are always throwing away infants here...” who insisted the tribes she studied should be admired for their “natural” child care.
The many in the mainstream, status quo academy that Lloyd addressed when alive would not—could not?—accept the overwhelming evidence Lloyd presented.
And this seems to continue to today as you point out with Haidt.
Do you know Stefan Molyneux’s work on Adverse Childhood Events and on Lloyd? Stefan has done excellent work to bring child abuse/neglect to public attention.
America’s Lost Dream ‘Life, Liberty And The Pursuit Of Happiness’ Current Research and Historical Background On the Origins of Love & Violence James W. Prescott, Ph.D.
Pat Benatar was either a violence survivor herself or held intense empathy toward survivors. Her hard-rock 1980s music visited the constant themes of the difficulties and contradictions survivors have dealing with violence and abuse, from "hit me with your best shot" to "we are invincible." I worked back then with abused teens, and the girls in particular found Benatar's music uniquely understanding of their complicated, ambivalent feelings. That is why I can't forgive the smug, simplistic, condescending attitudes of Twenge, Haidt, et al, that all that can just be dismissed.
And as bad as Twenge, Haidt, et al are, there are some even MORE extreme like Melanie Hempe of Screenstrong, who was an occasional guest on After Babel but mainly has her own Substack.
Are you taking into account how children develop all over the world? There are children all over the world, all non western, that experience things that few people in the western world do. And I doubt they will all show the same patterns as happens in the west. Ironically, resilience was something Haidt talked about before he jumped on the bandwagon of teen mental health crisis and social media. There is quite a bit of research about resilience among kids and the ability they have to bounce back from horrible experiences. But also what happens when they cannot for whatever reason. Are you familiar with research like this? I think you could find analogous patterns in non-western countries but also phenomena that won't fit into Western theories of child development or how kids should be raised. And what variations there in raising kids that could lead to similar outcomes, and probably as what patterns of adversity that goes beyond their ability of resilience.
This is an important point, and I'm sorry I don't know more about non-Western experiences with social media. I am aware of Haidt's complete about face, from being a harsh, often sarcastic critic in his 2018 book of "coddling" young people via censoring their experiences to the nation's chief coddler today. We are seeing evidence of young people's resilience in recent surveys that show even those with the worst experiences growing up nevertheless resist harmful behaviors, and it would be useful to know more about how. That's another reason I oppose these one-size-fits-all edicts banning or restricting young people's social media use.
Also too is the elephant in the room for Gen X: they were not only the most lead-poisoned generation in history, but in many ways they were also one of the most neglected during childhood in recent history as well. Makes you wonder if the "resilience" they like to brag so much about is really more about papering over the massive holes in their hearts from their childhood.
Indeed. While Haidt's about-face is ostensibly only for the online world, we know that in practice, attempting to do what he advocates at scale would spill over into the offline world too, leading to a new dark age for young people both online AND offline. Too many adults are still far too irrationally scared of the offline world to give young people the independence, and thus resilience, that they need to thrive, and that Let Grow advocates.
Maybe if adults, especially parents, stopped watching so much true crime stuff and 24/7 fearporn news media in general, we could make some real progress.
Well done again, Mike, I support you getting all to consider parental child abuse and neglect are at the core of violence towards others and self.
If you have not read Lloyd deMause, I urge you to do so, and send others likewise.
All of his books can be downloaded no charge at www.psychohistory.com along with many papers from the Psychohistory group.
Once you review the overwhelming evidence you must conclude that the "origin of war (and all human violence) is child abuse" (title of Lloyd's last book).
“The Gods Visit the Sins of the Fathers Upon the Children.” Euripides
“The history of childhood is a nightmare from which we have only recently begun to awaken. The further back in history one goes, the lower the level of child care. The source of most human violence and suffering has been a hidden children's holocaust throughout history, whereby billions of innocent human beings have been routinely murdered, bound, starved, raped, mutilated, battered, and tortured by their parents and other caregivers, so that they grow up as emotionally crippled adults and become vengeful time bombs who periodically restage their early traumas in sacrificial rites called wars. The evolution of the psyche is first of all accomplished by removing terrible abuses of children and their resulting developmental distortions, allowing the psyche to produce historical novelty and achieve its own inherent human growth path. Culture evolves through the increase of love and freedom for children. Self-mastery must replace the mastery of others. Global suicide must not continue to be our goal. History is now a race between too slowly improving childrearing and too fast evolving destructive technology. The crucial task of future generations will be to raise loved children who grow up to be peaceful, rather than walking time bombs. Can we afford not to teach parenting? What more important task can we devote our resources to?” Lloyd deMause
I agree and have read deMause, and I served on a state child abuse prevention board, which foolishly elected me president. It fascinates me that Haidt, a 2018 harsh critic of "coddling" young people by censoring their experiences has now morphed into the world's biggest child coddler -- yet, in a third contradiction, he has proven completely uninterested in child abuse and family troubles' influences on mental health.
Good that you have read deMause, Mike.
Generally, as you probably know, few non-academics have read him, and the not much fewer academics that have read him and Psychohistory, relegate its claims for child abuse and neglect to the Freudian concocted hysteria bin.
As Lloyd points out, respected social scientists and anthropologists on childhood from current Melvin Konner to 1930s Margaret Mead, denied child abuse occurred in primitive tribal societies. Lloyd quotes Mead “we’ve had one corpse float by, a newborn infant; they are always throwing away infants here...” who insisted the tribes she studied should be admired for their “natural” child care.
The many in the mainstream, status quo academy that Lloyd addressed when alive would not—could not?—accept the overwhelming evidence Lloyd presented.
And this seems to continue to today as you point out with Haidt.
Do you know Stefan Molyneux’s work on Adverse Childhood Events and on Lloyd? Stefan has done excellent work to bring child abuse/neglect to public attention.
Peaceful Parenting Stefan Molyneux
https://peacefulparenting.com
https://peacefulparenting.com/audio-book/
The Bomb in the Brain | The True Roots of Human Violence
https://freedomain.com/the-bomb-in-the-brain-the-true-roots-of-human-violence/
Get free, stay free.
Dr. James W. Prescott was also a wise man as well.
Thank you RWBS for this lead to Prescott, new for me, and what a find!
The Origins of Love by James W Prescott
http://www.violence.de/prescott/byron/article.pdf
Rock-A-Bye Baby Documentary: The Harlow Monkey Experiment
James Prescott, PhD, Shares Insights Into the Classic Documentary
http://www.violence.de/tv/rockabye.html
https://kindredmedia.org/2020/09/rock-a-bye-baby-documentary-the-harlow-monkey-experiment/
Interview: James W. Prescott
https://ttfuture.org/interviews/james-w-prescott/
The Origins of Love & Violence And The Developing Human Brain James Prescott, Ph.D. A conversation with Michael Mendizza
https://ttfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/esa_presscott_origins.pdf
Transforming The American Family A Call For Radical Social Political Action By James W. Prescott, Ph.D.
https://ttfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/esa_jwp_family.pdf
Mother-Infant Bonding & Breastfeeding A Public Awareness & Education Program James W. Prescott, Ph.D.
https://ttfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/jwp_breast.pdf
America’s Lost Dream ‘Life, Liberty And The Pursuit Of Happiness’ Current Research and Historical Background On the Origins of Love & Violence James W. Prescott, Ph.D.
https://ttfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/esa_jwp_lost_dream.pdf
Body Pleasure And The Origins Of Violence By James W. Prescott
http://www.deconnection.org/site/images/publicaties/body%20pleasure%20and%20the%20origins%20of%20violence%20-%20j.w.%20prescott.pdf
Great addition to my resource on peaceful parenting for peaceful parents.
You're very welcome, Jack! I'm glad I can help. The more people know about Prescott and his wonderful insights, the better.
Well-said, Jack. The song "Hell Is For Children" by Pat Benatar comes to mind.
New one for me, thanks, ugh.
Let us turn Hell into Hello! with peaceful parenting.
Pat Benatar was either a violence survivor herself or held intense empathy toward survivors. Her hard-rock 1980s music visited the constant themes of the difficulties and contradictions survivors have dealing with violence and abuse, from "hit me with your best shot" to "we are invincible." I worked back then with abused teens, and the girls in particular found Benatar's music uniquely understanding of their complicated, ambivalent feelings. That is why I can't forgive the smug, simplistic, condescending attitudes of Twenge, Haidt, et al, that all that can just be dismissed.
Look above at my Prescott find the RWBS, did you know of him as I did not?
Good to add him to Lloyd and Stefan.
Btw, you did not comment on Stefan, you do know his work?
Amen, well-said.
And as bad as Twenge, Haidt, et al are, there are some even MORE extreme like Melanie Hempe of Screenstrong, who was an occasional guest on After Babel but mainly has her own Substack.
https://screenstrong.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=substack_profile
It would be great if you left some of your excellent and astute comments on her articles there too, Mike.
Well-said as usual, Mike!