Very limited and largely useless. Just as in the US, parents' deadly drug abuse has skyrocketed in the UK, Canada, and Australia, along with wider, related family- and community-level crises these trends bring. Yet, the Haidts in this discussion can't deal with those realities teens themselves have no choice but to face (even though I've repeatedly informed him of them, along with sources).
The USA still takes the cake in that regard. But as the cancer of what is euphemistically called "neoliberalism" spreads like a virus across the Anglosphere, then the OECD, and ultimately the rest of the world, the rest of the world is ultimately catching up as well, and not in a good way.
"Second, because teen suicide and self-destruction are rare, fixating on percentage changes is misleading. It is meaningless to compare the PERCENT change in suicides for 10-14-year-old girls (who had 50 suicides a year) with, say, those of their mothers age 40-44 (900 suicides a year) or fathers age 40-44 (2,800). "
I want to quibble about this one point. Sometimes percentage change is most appropriate, sometimes absolute change is. It all depends on what one is concerned about. If you are focused on the well-being of teens, when death is supposed to be rare (at least actuarially), then percentage change is absolutely a valid thing to be concerned about. Now if you are trying to compare one age group to another, as you do in this example, and they have wildly different base rates, then yes, I would agree that percentage change to compare the two is inappropriate.
That said, this is a great article.
"America’s authorities steadfastly refuse to admit that the appalling 785,000 parent-age self-destructive deaths during this period (equal to the disappearance of every middle-aged adult in a city of 2 million people), plus the millions of homes affected by lesser outcomes, could possibly be making teens more depressed. They have not even developed comprehensive measures to assess the impact of grownups’ self-destruction on teens."
The point you make about the choice by authorities to ignore the impact that the crisis of self-destructive deaths of parents, guardians, and caregivers may have on teens is an excellent one. Our concern for the well-being of teens should extend far beyond whether or not they choose suicide.
"The anti-teen, anti-social-media crusade is an escapist stampede in the destructive American tradition that make us the Western world’s most dangerous society by far. It has nothing to do with “protecting children.” Teenagers are right to find today’s situation more depressing and anxiety-causing."
Good point. If one is comparing groups with roughly similar outcomes, percent is an illuminating measure. Or -- relevant to this case -- one wants to compare the previous behavior of a group with its present behavior, percent change can also be relevant,,, but one cannot then compare that group to another group with vastly different outcomes. Thanks for comment!
The question that isn't getting asked here is "Why?"
Why are so many middle-aged people harming themselves, killing themselves, and turning to addiction to numb themselves? What's going on? (if this question gets addressed in a more appropriate post, please respond with a link; I'm genuinely curious. Thanks!)
The real elephant in the room is that the *adults* are NOT alright. Anyone who thinks that arbitrary age gating and other such band-aids are on philosophically stable ground will soon find themselves eating crow. So if we really want to solve this all-ages collective action problem, how about we officially declare a state of emergency and quarantine all social media for "just two weeks". Also have a smartphone buyback program like they do for guns. I am only half-joking about that.
(As for phone-free schools, fine. And how about phone-free workplaces as well?)
Of course, those are not permanent solutions, only enough to break the spell that Big Tech has over We the People. We actually need to FIX the internet for good. We need to throw the proverbial One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom by passing comprehensive data privacy legislation for all ages, and especially banning surveillance advertising. We need to audit the algorithms and make them public. We need to rein in the deliberately addictive features and "frictionless sharing" of these platforms. And of course, we need to go antitrust on Big Tech as well. Yesterday.
To the adults in the room: the life you save may very well be your own.
Also, let's zoom out to see the bigger picture for a moment. The biggest elephant in the room is that the *adults* aren't alright. If social media, smartphones, etc are so horrible and practically an existential threat to our nation, then perhaps the powers that be should declare a state of emergency and 1) impose an all-ages nationwide "quarantine" on all social media platforms (except for standalone texting-like direct messaging apps) for "just two weeks", or until the companies running the platforms remove the most addictive and problematic features, whichever is longer, and 2) have a voluntary smartphone buyback program for all ages, similar to gun buybacks. Then pass comprehensive data privacy legislation and ban surveillance advertising, to throw the proverbial One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom for good. Collective action problem solved. What was the question again?
Bonus points if they also implement phone-free workplaces for all ages, and not just for schools. At least while on the clock. I mean, adults should be setting a good example and not being flaming hypocrites, right?
(Mic drop)
(I posted this comment on Jon Haidt's latest Substack article.)
Very limited and largely useless. Just as in the US, parents' deadly drug abuse has skyrocketed in the UK, Canada, and Australia, along with wider, related family- and community-level crises these trends bring. Yet, the Haidts in this discussion can't deal with those realities teens themselves have no choice but to face (even though I've repeatedly informed him of them, along with sources).
Very limited and largely useless. Just as in the US, parents' deadly drug abuse has skyrocketed in the UK, Canada, and Australia, along with wider, related family- and community-level crises these trends bring. Yet, the Haidts in this discussion can't deal with those realities teens themselves have no choice but to face (even though I've repeatedly informed him of them, along with sources).
The USA still takes the cake in that regard. But as the cancer of what is euphemistically called "neoliberalism" spreads like a virus across the Anglosphere, then the OECD, and ultimately the rest of the world, the rest of the world is ultimately catching up as well, and not in a good way.
Well-said. I knew you would cut through the BS like you always have a knack for doing. Thank you!
"Second, because teen suicide and self-destruction are rare, fixating on percentage changes is misleading. It is meaningless to compare the PERCENT change in suicides for 10-14-year-old girls (who had 50 suicides a year) with, say, those of their mothers age 40-44 (900 suicides a year) or fathers age 40-44 (2,800). "
I want to quibble about this one point. Sometimes percentage change is most appropriate, sometimes absolute change is. It all depends on what one is concerned about. If you are focused on the well-being of teens, when death is supposed to be rare (at least actuarially), then percentage change is absolutely a valid thing to be concerned about. Now if you are trying to compare one age group to another, as you do in this example, and they have wildly different base rates, then yes, I would agree that percentage change to compare the two is inappropriate.
That said, this is a great article.
"America’s authorities steadfastly refuse to admit that the appalling 785,000 parent-age self-destructive deaths during this period (equal to the disappearance of every middle-aged adult in a city of 2 million people), plus the millions of homes affected by lesser outcomes, could possibly be making teens more depressed. They have not even developed comprehensive measures to assess the impact of grownups’ self-destruction on teens."
The point you make about the choice by authorities to ignore the impact that the crisis of self-destructive deaths of parents, guardians, and caregivers may have on teens is an excellent one. Our concern for the well-being of teens should extend far beyond whether or not they choose suicide.
"The anti-teen, anti-social-media crusade is an escapist stampede in the destructive American tradition that make us the Western world’s most dangerous society by far. It has nothing to do with “protecting children.” Teenagers are right to find today’s situation more depressing and anxiety-causing."
Well said.
Good point. If one is comparing groups with roughly similar outcomes, percent is an illuminating measure. Or -- relevant to this case -- one wants to compare the previous behavior of a group with its present behavior, percent change can also be relevant,,, but one cannot then compare that group to another group with vastly different outcomes. Thanks for comment!
The question that isn't getting asked here is "Why?"
Why are so many middle-aged people harming themselves, killing themselves, and turning to addiction to numb themselves? What's going on? (if this question gets addressed in a more appropriate post, please respond with a link; I'm genuinely curious. Thanks!)
The real elephant in the room is that the *adults* are NOT alright. Anyone who thinks that arbitrary age gating and other such band-aids are on philosophically stable ground will soon find themselves eating crow. So if we really want to solve this all-ages collective action problem, how about we officially declare a state of emergency and quarantine all social media for "just two weeks". Also have a smartphone buyback program like they do for guns. I am only half-joking about that.
(As for phone-free schools, fine. And how about phone-free workplaces as well?)
Of course, those are not permanent solutions, only enough to break the spell that Big Tech has over We the People. We actually need to FIX the internet for good. We need to throw the proverbial One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom by passing comprehensive data privacy legislation for all ages, and especially banning surveillance advertising. We need to audit the algorithms and make them public. We need to rein in the deliberately addictive features and "frictionless sharing" of these platforms. And of course, we need to go antitrust on Big Tech as well. Yesterday.
To the adults in the room: the life you save may very well be your own.
(Mic drop)
Also, let's zoom out to see the bigger picture for a moment. The biggest elephant in the room is that the *adults* aren't alright. If social media, smartphones, etc are so horrible and practically an existential threat to our nation, then perhaps the powers that be should declare a state of emergency and 1) impose an all-ages nationwide "quarantine" on all social media platforms (except for standalone texting-like direct messaging apps) for "just two weeks", or until the companies running the platforms remove the most addictive and problematic features, whichever is longer, and 2) have a voluntary smartphone buyback program for all ages, similar to gun buybacks. Then pass comprehensive data privacy legislation and ban surveillance advertising, to throw the proverbial One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom for good. Collective action problem solved. What was the question again?
Bonus points if they also implement phone-free workplaces for all ages, and not just for schools. At least while on the clock. I mean, adults should be setting a good example and not being flaming hypocrites, right?
(Mic drop)
(I posted this comment on Jon Haidt's latest Substack article.)
What are your thoughts on this one by Jon Haidt, in reference to Europe?
https://www.afterbabel.com/p/international-crisis-europe
Very limited and largely useless. Just as in the US, parents' deadly drug abuse has skyrocketed in the UK, Canada, and Australia, along with wider, related family- and community-level crises these trends bring. Yet, the Haidts in this discussion can't deal with those realities teens themselves have no choice but to face (even though I've repeatedly informed him of them, along with sources).
Well-said
Well-said overall as usual, Mike.
Thanks for comments!
You're very welcome :)